Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. It appears that after some really heady and occasionally heated conversations about transformation, the power of intent, and the economy -- the latter of which was surprisingly related to the former two -- people are ready to put their words to practice.
(For reference to our past topics please utilize the widget on the left hand side of the page, just below the About Me section)
This topic, therefore, is going to more of a workshop where life becomes the exercise and our virtual space here becomes a place to share your experience, gain input from others, be coached, and learn from one another's encounters with life -- the place where ideas and our ego meet reality.
My suggestion -- pick a particular area of your life you would like to focus upon (it will most likely expand as we go on, but let's start more specifically to gain some clarity). You may considering sharing what you're encountering;how you see yourself connected to the results that are occurring; what you'd like to create from the situation; what you're willing to do about it; what level of ownership for your current situation you're currently at; what you'd do would do differently if you took a greater level of ownership for your role and the outcome?
I'd invite us to consider writing our process in steps so as not to create posts that are so long that others grow weary attempting to sort through them. Perhaps taking on one of the above questions at a time might be an approach. Or starting out by bulletizing to give us context and a more whole picture -- and then going into detail on the above bullets on subsequent posts.
Part of the magic of this type of process is to allow what other people write to be a catalyst for your own reaction or response. Notice what comes up for you; what it reminds you of; what would you suggest that someone might do differently to achieve results that better points them toward their desired outcome.
Also, it's valuable to remember that our experience is our own -- and that part of the secret of this exercise is to try to do "paradigm-shifting" -- experiencing life through the eyes of another -- walking a mile in someone else's shoes. The more we can be free of judgment and full of compassion, the more this process will benefit each of us.
Let the exercise begin.
Christopher
P.S. As always remember that to see the comments in a separate window, click on the "Comments" link. To see the comments in the body of the topic, click "Links to this Post"
Views of those commenting have not been checked for accuracy and do not necessarily reflect the views of this blog publisher or his associates.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTom,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the risk of not looking good. If you look deeply enough into any of our lives, I'm pretty sure most of us would feel we don't look good in some regard.
You've done a good job of accepting responsibility for your marital situation and your choices as a parent and have connected yourself to the outcomes.
I've been down my own version of your road and I know that while it seems simple, it ends up being a lot more complex because of the many lives involved.
Key question: Do you have a counselor or trained professional that's helping you, real-time, work through the process? It was a quality-of-life-saving decision for both my ex-wife, my kids, and me to have people directly involved in helping us with objective, clean advice and to process the fallout regularly and in a healthy manner. There always seems to be damage that will occur in such situations, but those professional helpers certainly gave us the tools and on-going advice that allowed us to limit the scope and depth of the damage and to end up knowing what the scope of our choices were (as adults it was, of course, far more than the limit of two we may give kids when they're young); to then decide powerfully and intentionally which choices we would make; and how to carry those choices out productively.
All food for thought, of course.
Christopher
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTransformational Looking Good & Ecstasy at the Alter of Transformation: Zen No Hope
ReplyDeleteIn the game of transformation “looking bad and facing your problems” looks good. In fact, if you actually take on your problems with the action of changing, then you get to look really good. It doesn’t really matter in the transformation game weather you actually transformed because there is little follow up to see if you lived up to your declared possibility. Of course, the game does have follow up, but its up to your integrity to admit that you really failed and didn’t start that program that was going to transform your life. So in the spirit of looking good because that is what we want, its up to us to really transform and be our word as if our life depended on it. The transformational game is the start, but you have to be your word and keep yourself transformed, not just in a constant state of changing and changing back. We tell ourselves little white lies to motivate our behavior, but is it really possible to lie to oneself? All this in order to risk looking bad so we can look good for others, and ultimately look good for ourselves, the one person we can’t really lie to.
Great scientific article on self-deception & winning:
http://www.wnyc.org/files/radiolab/Self_Deception_and_Swimming.pdf
I remember taking my first seminar called the “Good Life Seminar” in the late 70’s with Dr. Vernon Wolf; this was before my EST days. We were the generation of kids whose parents got high on motivational seminars & drugs both legal and illegal. Our parents brought their kids to get some of that great understanding in action! We didn’t even know about drugs but were experiencing the ecstasy highs of something like Jones Town without the pink lemonade. I was high as a kite on transformational insight. Of course, I was a kid, and everything is new and exciting to kids; future seminars never got me as high as those first ones. We all became seminar junkies through the 70’s, 80’s & 90’s. It was a new way of life, keep working on your problems, and solve one or two once in awhile, and give the transformational work credit for making a difference in your life. But these seminars did help, they really did change our lives in many ways, and some things we actually transformed which I think in a previous generation, they would not have transformed forever some of their problems like we did. But I can’t really compare and contrast with generations of the 60’s and before because its all relative and scientifically speaking it would be too confounding of a study to come up with any validity. We keep praying at the alter of transformation changing and transforming the world forever in total ecstasy and euphoric delight, or so we assume
Yesterday I went to the Zen center to hear about the “Big Mind’ work of Roshi, who is working with Ken Wilber. This is a very controversial work at the Zen center breaking from traditional Zen practice but has an amazing effect on our western minds. It felt like an exercise in Gestalt therapy on Zen steroids. Diane the Sensei was talking about how a Mormon man wanted to learn more about Zen and that they were doing a fundraiser for cancer. They wanted to have a Zen theme at the cancer fundraiser and thought of using a black stone to represent hope. She had to tell him that in Zen there is no hope, and so began our lesson, a speaking therapy, speaking to the imagined person who is being hope, hopelessness, no hope and the apex of spirituality.
All paths are the same; to me, what’s true for me, as opposed to dogma, speaking in the voice of no hope Zen is the path of least resistance.
Looking to the a future of great meaning and hope from the path of no hope and no meaning,
Moki
Wow... I was hoping to see our other conversations keep on rockin'... I thought they were just starting to get real?
ReplyDeleteCan we keep talking in the other rooms too?
Love ya!
JJ
Hey JJ (and everyone),
ReplyDeleteYes, you are welcome to continue the discussion in the other topic areas. I'd also ask you to consider ways of combining the conversations under this topic heading.
This area doesn't need to be a confessional, by any means. In fact, we'd prefer a practical discussion of how we each deal with, confront, or encounter transformation, manifestation, and the economy in your life. I'm really hoping to involve some diverse voices here.
We're also hoping to provide some personal examples of what we're hoping for and should have those available soon.
Thanks!
Christopher
Christopher,
ReplyDeleteGood news. We are not moving to divorce because of your great advice we are attempting a trial separation. I will have custody of our kids and we will see what the future brings!
I am sorry to have shared such a serous subject in this blog; it probably would have been better left to the counselors where we made the most progress thanks to Christopher suggestion.
Please excuse the interruption and thank you for letting me grow with this blog community. I have a lot to learn and am trying my best the figure out how to participate.
Best,
Tom Gallagher
Hello to everyone,
ReplyDeleteWe (Nigel, KBF, and Dot P) are writing a quick post to let you know we have not abandoned the cause. Rather we have been working on a post together. It's taken us on a rather remarkable side journey of epic proportions, but we are fast approaching the space from which we will be able to share a summation of our thoughts regarding intention, unconscious interference, economic manifestations, and so forth.
We appreciate all of your patience, however strained.
Dot P., KBF, Nigel,
ReplyDeleteI was glad to see your post and look forward to your ideas. I have been wrestling with this one a lot myself lately, and I haven't dropped out either, but it's taking a lot of thought. I think that a new kind of synthesis is necessary if we aren't going to get stuck just talking ourselves to death, and I'm finding that the ingredients take a long time to cook down. I have the possibly naive intention that this forum might possibly offer an avenue for helping all of us turn all the thoughts and feelings into something that might help us make meaningful changes in our individual lives instead of just talking, and I have certainly found that while it's easy to pontificate, it's a lot harder to look deeply into even the simplest aspects of my own life with the commitment to actually and permanently doing something differently. Not easily done at all.
I look forward to yours and everyone else's comments. It's a tough bar to reach, but even if we miss it, I think we'll get higher and farther for trying.
And Thomas G., I'm sorry for your trouble. Been there, done that. There's no good way through it. There's only getting to the other side however you have to. Best wishes to you in the journey.
BKO,
ReplyDeleteThank you. The divorce is moving forward and I am fighting for split custody. Its to bad we have to sell the house now in this bad market, but at least with my GI Bill home loan guerantee, I will be able to buy a home again in the future.
The silence in here is so loud. I have so looked forward to this blog, I look three times a day hoping to see some words from you amazing and beautiful people!
Come back and play, I really like all of you!
Best,
Tom Gallagher
thomasgall@aol.com
801-578-7260 cell
Recognizing fully that there is a desire to move simply beyond “talk” we have elected to propose a framework for this conversation that might allow us to move into the realm of what actually transpires in our day-to-day lives. We created the foregoing model and approach based on the difficulty we were each having determining how to even approach the invitation presented by Christopher. At Nigel’s suggestion, we have utilized a modified version of Tiller’s theories and combined it with the work of KBF and Dot P, to provide a basis from which we hope a more cohesive discussion might spring forth.
ReplyDeleteTiller’s work provided a framework that has been approximated by a number of others in that unfortunately odd juncture between the exploration of science and consciousness. To play upon his work and form a simple model (we have somewhat modified it based on our own models) one could illustrate the process of transformation and manifestation according to the following system of vibrational manifestations of energy:
Universal Consciousness (Brahman, God)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
Individuated Consciousness (Atman, Spirit)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
Incarnate Consciousness (Soul -- Isness)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
Emotional Consciousness (Energetic Body/Mind -- Being)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
Etheric/Astral Interface (Dream Mind – Positing a + or - charge)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
Physical Interface (Gross Body - Conscious Mind -- Doing)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
Exterior Reality/Manifestation
*********
As to our previous discussion on affirmations, one can see from this model that affirmations only scratch the surface and deals with energy at one of its lowest vibrational rates and thus most dense and least penetrable sectors.
Human beings, in our current state of rather limited consciousness evolution, spend most of our time attempting to manipulate Exterior Reality by interacting with it primarily from our point of Physical Interface. To varying degrees, depending upon the self-work one has engaged in, leakage from the higher vibrational realms has increasing levels of influence upon the Physical Interface and thus upon Exterior Reality and one’s ability to more fully, clearly, and easily manifest that which is intended. To the degree that alignment of the higher and lower vibrational realms is in discontinuity, manifestation in Exterior Reality will be more limited.
One of Tiller’s primary and perhaps most important discoveries is that the more one increases continuity between the realms and the more one “practices” imbuing one’s exterior spaces and reality with such clear, concentrated energetic intentionality, the more Exterior Reality aligns with such intention and the longer the duration of such re-shaping of reality endures.
This is suitable for a staring place. What we would suggest, therefore, is that as we each contemplate any aspect of our life which we would like to share, we then approach our discussion from the following two standpoints (which inherently incorporate the notion of economy as it pertains to all of the resources available to us):
To what degree are we consciously managing (or acting as stewards) of our resources – considering that the entire spectrum, as laid out above, is available to us?
Which areas of the above spectrum present challenges to us and why?
What impedes your ability to manifest personally and collectively in the specific way you envision?
Which level of the spectrum do you believe your vision/desire for the particular manifestation you wish to create or are creating is most influenced by?
We also welcome questions and discussion about the proposed model itself. We would, however, encourage everyone to stay, as much as possible, on topic. If it is necessary for people to branch into tangential conversations, we would recommend that Christopher create another "room" into which such conversations might be directed.
With great interest in your responses,
Nigel, KBF, and Dot P.
I'll not pretend to be any kind of an expert on this topic, but instead an active participant in the process of personal growth. The model put forth by Dot P., KBF, and Nigel does offer some much needed structure for my mind, in terms of this conversation. That said, I believe it also important for us to remind ourselves to not marry to model to reality (i.e. it is merely a well-created model, not reality itself).
ReplyDeleteCertainly for me, as I look at one of my current areas for growth (learning to parent a teenager vs. my child prior to her being a teen), I am spending most of my time at the physical interface attempting to influence, mold, manipulate, and at time coerce my daughter into embracing my model of the world. My motivations for doing so are ostensibly because I believe it is what is best (and at some level what is “true”). I would like to truly learn and understand, at a far deeper level, a more transformed path --and I do not refer to an intellectual methodology -- I’ve engaged in a multitude of such “technologies” which are incremental in nature. So please, for the sake of this discussion, let’s keep from trying to sell one another yet another “workshop.”
I am also clear that I do understand how the Etheric/Astral Interface plays into the equation in this model (or in life), but I can see that I am also influenced a great deal by my Emotional Consciousness leading me to "be" more fearful than loving.
I would appreciate some further clarification on the Dream Mind, the notion of positing a + or - charge -- I assume onto my experience -- and of the Emotional Consciousness. I don't quite have a feel for what how those dimensions interact and how the progression occurs.
Oddly, I believe the upper three levels are easier for me to understand philosophically and perhaps even apply because they correspond more to the spiritual traditions I have been exposed to and practiced over the course of my life.
It would seem that meditation and contemplative prayer might be tools that enable one to access these dimensions with greater ease and thus intentionally increase the volume of "leakage" or influence these realms might have on our grosser minds.
Truly curious for answers,
Anna
Anna,
ReplyDeleteNigel can comment more on the Etheric Interface (which corresponds to Tiller's Deltron Field). I'll comment briefly on the Emotional Consciousness (which would correspond to in Tiller's model to R-Space).
Emotions, based on my own theories in rough correspondence to Tiller's, create an electro-magnetic charge (positive or negative). This charge is then transferred into the Etheric realm (according to Tiller's model) or where it then plays out in our dreams and unconscious (according to my transpersonal psychological models).
From there, the intention is implemented, via the physical interface (into the 3-D world -- Tiller makes no distinction between the physical body and the outer world, seeing them as being in the same dimension). We've created a demarcation between ourselves and the "outside" world for the purpose of clarity (though from the standpoint of physics the lack of demarcation makes equal sense).
Long story short, Anna, when we are not in control of our emotions they are constantly creating charges in the pre-physical (Etheric realm), though usually with no a tremendous amount of amplitude (thus they can impact our own lives, and only tangentially the lives of others). When we learn to control and intentionally concentrate our emotional charge, we can pass it through into the physical dimensions with more power, expanse, and duration.
Does that provide any sense of clarity for you?
Dot P.
Thanks, Dot P.!
ReplyDeleteI seem to be sensing (and this is very intriguing to me) that according your theoretical model there is a difference between what you earlier termed as "leakage" from the higher vibrational realms, and what we might term an intentional, focused dissemination or laser-like blast of energy from these higher dimensions. Would that be correct?
If so, it would also appear that the more we become aware and open up the seeming barriers between these realms, the more specifically, intentionally, consciously, etc., we will be manifesting our intention upon the outer world.
Looking for others' thoughts on this as well.
Smiling (because my mind is stimulated),
Anna
P.S. This is very encouraging in terms of how I intend to begin applying this approach with my daughter. I'm anxious to report back to everyone what the result may be.
"What we are engaged in creating is the opportunity for people to participate in the transformation of peoples' lives and of life itself. This context of transformation is a context of freedom and opportunity, of empowerment and human joy, of contribution and of participation. Participation in this transformation is, for me, the fullest expression of being."
ReplyDelete"In this conversation we discover another possibility: living in a way, now, moment to moment, that makes a difference to life. We discover that as human beings we can live in a possibility instead of in what we have inherited, that instead of just being a human being because we were born that way, we can declare the possibility of being for human beings. This is the work of transformation: bringing forth a breakthrough in the possibility of being human.
What we create together is a relationship in which our work can show up as making a difference in people's lives. I welcome the unprecedented opportunity for us to work globally on that which concerns us all as human beings."
--Werner Erhard
I know that not everyone in this community comes from a scientific background. I do and I'm still scratching my head over some of the terminology used in these most recent posts by Dot P., Anna, Nigel, and KBF.
ReplyDeleteCould you all re-state your hypothesis in plain English so that everyone can be in the same dimension with you? This sounds like we're about to explore some very useful models. Let's make sure we're not leaving out half of our family in this conversation.
Thank you,
Tarah
Tarah,
ReplyDeleteI felt the same, but wasn't sure if I should interfere in their conversation.
But I sure would love some guidance to follow this conversation.
Anna was nice to give me guidance to read intergral psychology.
are there articles or books that would help me without a scientific background to follow this conversation?
Either way, I appreciate the information and will try to get what I am able to understand.
Thank you,
Tom
Yes, Tarah and Tom, good call. We've made it unnecessarily complicated, it appears. Let's simplify. According to the theoretical model we have set forth:
ReplyDeleteConsciousness, one might say, expresses on a variety of bandwidths, and with an equally infinite array of frequencies. The higher the frequency, the broader the bandwidth upon which it is broadcast, and the less defined the form consciousness takes.
Universal Consciousness is "omnipresent" (in and through all things and throughout the immensity of space) without shape or restriction. It could be said to be the “ground of being” from which all else springs.
Individuated Consciousness takes on a more narrow expression, resonates on a narrower bandwidth, and at a lower frequency than that of Universal Consciousness and begins to take on the form of what one might call a "Light Body" -- meaning that the energy is now vibrating within the spectrum of light as may be measured, at times, by electromagnetic instrumentation. At this stage, consciousness begins to express in a more individualistic form (though does not believe itself to be an individual per se, but rather a unique expression of the whole, yet still within the larger whole). Some might refer to this as the domain as the “Higher Self”, “Atman”, Buddha Mind,”
Incarnate Consciousness is what occurs when consciousness vibrates at a frequency low enough for it to begin to bond with biological energy forms. At this stage, consciousness appears to lose its connection with the whole (at least as one progresses in age). This domain may be referred to as the “soul.”
Emotional Consciousness, which is now generated by the Incarnate Consciousness' interaction with the biological life form, begins to create energetic releases which appear in the form of chemical and electro responses that are measurable in the brain, endocrine, and nervous systems. The three of us agreed that this is the domain of the "unconscious body/mind". It is at this level that actual positive and negative electro-charges are generated which both trigger cellular responses, and also charge the bridge interface between "spirit" and "matter" -- the Etheric Realm.
I (Nigel) have posited that this Etheric Realm is that of the "subconscious" domain (that which is accessed during sleep during the dream state when the conscious mind has shut down). While the unconscious body/mind holds a great deal of information, it adds no meaning to it other than that which is based upon survival, unless the conscious mind (physical interface), or subconscious mind (Etheric interface) have imposed meaning upon such information. This actual implementation of the positive or negative charge is what enables the energy to begin to interact at the atomic and molecular level and thus begin to “manifest” on the “physical plane.”
The Physical Interface is where the conscious mind and the gross physical body combine to interact with the physical matter in the Exterior Reality.
The key to Anna’s apparent realization is that at each successively lower frequency realm, intention tends to manifest less “perfectly” (i.e. with greater variances from the original vision) and with less intensity (the ripple effect reaches less distance and has less impact).
Most of us, at the human level, have been working to alter our reality by hammering away at gross matter or by using the much denser vibrational power and bandwidth of our conscious mind. This is why progress is so slow, healing so unpredictable, manifestation so dramatically unstable and laden with agendas that are not in the best interest of the whole (for the conscious mind has, in large measure, forgotten that it is part of the whole).
The reason why asked the questions we did at the end of our initial presentation is because we feel it valuable for us to begin to notice where (at what level) we are typically functioning from. As long as we continue to function from the lower two levels (with leakage primarily from the emotional level), our world will continue to by and large continue the way it is with only slight incremental change at best.
Holistic healing, transpersonal psychology, holistic responsibility, meaningful transformation, and so forth, are all generated from the higher vibratory domains (those above the Emotional Consciousness). When we have created a linkage between these higher aspects of consciousness and those more individuated aspects of consciousness, the clarity of vision, intensity of energy, the focus and direction of vision, etc. can all be intensified in such a way as to manifest more powerfully and in harmony with the whole.
True healing, for example, takes place when the “healer” focuses their higher consciousness into and through their Emotional Consciousness and Etheric Consciousness and into their Physical Interface and thus transmits on these same frequencies and thus into those same frequency domains of the person being “healed.” It is literally the vibrational re-alignment that takes place at these higher energetic levels that leads to the charges being reversed and cellular and atomic responses resulting in “healing.”
This is sufficient for the moment. We’ll pause and see if there are more questions or if we have created more confusion.
Dot P. and Nigel
Dot P, Nigel and KBF:
ReplyDeleteThank you for your excellent detail. I can see the whole connection and interaction with greater understanding and detail.
I wonder if this is a new theory because parts of it I have heard before…
Is this something the integral psychology is already doing, or are you guys expanding on something that other theorist have not covered?
You said, “the "unconscious body/mind". It is at this level that actual positive and negative electro-charges are generated which both trigger cellular responses, and also charge the bridge interface between "spirit" and "matter" -- the Etheric Realm.”
Please explain this bridge, this doesn’t make sense to me.
I agree with Nigel’s theory on dreams, on a separate note I don’t believe they predict the future, rather are a way for our mind to deal with all the assumption our brain seems to create to deal with life. If predicting the future is possible I think it would occur not in dreams but in imagination, but maybe I am wrong, any thoughts?
Nigel said, “subconscious mind (Etheric interface) have imposed meaning upon such information. This actual implementation of the positive or negative charge is what enables the energy to begin to interact at the atomic and molecular level and thus begin to “manifest” on the “physical plane.”
Nigel, I don’t understand what you mean by charges and interactions?
Is incarnate consciousness when the soul joins the body also at birth?
I wanted to know more examples of manifestation at all these levels. I get that doing something like Gandhi, Buddha, Christ, Mother Teresa is manifesting from a universal consciousness. Can you in simple example show me how one would manifest on all these different levels?
Best,
Tom Gallagher
My mentor has done some work dealing with the issue of integrity in transformational creation, is this similar to creating from a higher frequency and having greater results as Anna suggests?
ReplyDelete"INTEGRITY: A POSITIVE MODEL THAT INCORPORATES THE NORMATIVE PHENOMENA OF MORALITY, ETHICS, AND LEGALITY"
Academic Paper in Progress
Our primary purpose here is to present a positive model of integrity that provides powerful access to increased performance for individuals, groups, organizations, and even societies. Our model reveals the causal link between integrity as we clarify and define it, and increased performance and value-creation for individuals, groups, organizations and even societies. And our model provides access to that causal link for private individuals, executives, economists, philosophers, policy makers, leaders, and legal and governmental authorities.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=920625
Best,
Tom Gallagher
Good morning, Thomas, excellent questions. The theories we are presenting are not solely our own, but -- as mentioned in our earlier post -- have been influenced by the work of William Tiller, Walter Dibble, Michael Kohane, Jeff Soulen, Ken Wilber and many others, as well as by our own work.
ReplyDeleteIn regard to positive and negative electro-charges in what we have termed the Etheric Realm (or Deltron field), much of this work was actually demonstrated in the replicable experiments of Tiller and his associates.
It may help to think of the Etheric Realm as what has been called in esoteric terms, the Void -- or in physics terminology a vacuum (according to many emerging theories, a vacuum is not empty, but is dark energy/dark matter -- i.e. energy or uncreated matter that is in essence “waiting” to receive a charge at which point it will manifest on the physical plane).
How does this manifestation occur? In brief, atoms are comprised of groups of positively and negatively (and neutrally) charged sub-atomic elements (protons, electrons, and neutrons). Chemical bonds at the molecular levels are then created as atoms with opposite charges attract one another and thus create an “electromagnetic bond” as in the interaction between Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms that form water molecules).
From a more fundamental level, it is this balancing act between positive and negative charges that allows manifest energy (visa vie the formation of atoms and molecules) to maintain its form as material substance -- i.e. fundamental elements like Hydrogen, Oxygen, etc.
Now, as another reminder, atoms are the smallest particle of an element, which has all property of that element. If one were to attempt to divide an atom it will lose all of the properties of that element and divide back in to electrons ,protons ,neutrons and large amount of energy.
What does all of this mean? Matter is created by the charging of dark (or non-measurable) energy/matter with a positive or negative or neutral charges (notice this is where duality begins), which thus brings it into the physical realm where it can be measured. Prior to such a charge, energy is neither positive nor negative nor neutral. One might say therefore, that universal consciousness has pure potentiality, but has no specific material form in its purest sense since it has not yet taken on a charge or non-charge.
If you can conceptualize the body/mind as the positive or negative charging mechanism and the Etheric plane or vacuum as the realm in which the charge actually interacts with dark energy/matter, then the physical plane is the dimension in which the charged energy “materializes”.
Now, follow the bouncing ball (and this is only part of the chain, but we’ll take it a few segments at time): Body/Mind (unconscious) generates a “charge” which activates dark matter in the Etheric Realm, which then manifests on the Material or Physical Plane (which includes the physical body and potentially the environment around a person).
Interacting with Physical Plane and attempting to manipulate or change matter at the purely physical level (either via physical manipulation or the conscious mind) is interacting with matter after it has already been formed and without tracing it back to its source).
Learning how to utilize the unconscious mind (body/mind), subconscious mind (Etheric realm), and the Incarnate consciousness (which we have not yet demonstrated in our specific examples in this particular post) are the key to more effective, lasting, and holistically beneficial manifestation.
You also ask if incarnate consciousness is when the soul joins the body also at birth. When this interaction occurs is a matter of debate, of course, but as for me, I personally feel it occurs as soon as the sperm and egg are joined (and “life” begins as a new entity).
Good enough for now. We’ll get back to you on your last question regarding examples at all the various levels, as they require an understanding of what we’ve described here first.
Have we made any sense here? Or have we just created a pool of gobbledy-goop?
Nigel
Dear Thomas,
ReplyDeleteI would suggest to you that the concepts of morality, ethics, and legality, as well as that of integrity are mental constructs created at the realm of physical consciousness.
Such relativistic terms are our attempts to define the characteristics of the Universal Consciousness or Individuated Consciousness (as they've been referred to here). These realms are truly not able to be confined by such definitions. All such definitions are limited by the mind of any one of us who attempts to so define them (especially when we attempt to impose our limited filter upon others, as we are all want to do).
For example to define unconditional love, immediately places conditions upon it. That quality is, therefore, impossible to define, but one knows it when one experiences it.
It is equally impossible to define "God", "Buddha Mind", Brahman," and so on. Whatever one says in an attempt to provide a description, IT (as Rizzin says) is beyond that limited definition.
There is nothing wrong with discussing a model such as you have provided here. But let's just be clear that like all of the models we lay out for dicussion, it is relative and therefore limited by our collective understanding and agreement upon the terminology used therein -- and by the basic fact that we are using words as a substitute for more pure modes of communication that might better generate a more pure form of understanding.
Kind regards,
Shayla
Nigel and Shayla,
ReplyDeleteThank you for these explanations, very clear and I am starting to understand, I have a place to begin my research to follow the conversation much better!
Its amazing how many of these theories I have believed before but did not have specifics or a complete definition that combinded them all, well done!
Last question till I read your post another 20 times to fully get what your saying.
is it worth also studying Steve McIntosh in his book on Integral Consciousness and the future of evolution? (How the integral worldview is transforming politics, culture, and spirituality)
Best,
Tom Gallagher
Wow! This has been a hard topic to find my way into... but I decided that instead of being distracted by the heady conversation of physics-heads, psychologists and the likes... I would just dive in and answer what Christopher originally asked when he set up this topic.
ReplyDeleteI have to admit when Tom wrote about his divorce I was pretty stunned... I actually felt like I had somehow intruded upon his private space and was overhearing a conversation that I shouldn't really be a party to...
But the more I get to an authentic place in myself... the more I realize that what shocked me was that someone else was willing to say what I wasn't...
Truth is... my boyfriend of 5 years has decided to leave me... but if the deeper truth be told... I left first... emotionally. He did the harder part of ending it in the "3D" world... as you're now calling it.
This whole idea of personal and spiritual growth sounds so good on paper... you know? But as I sit here alone in my little bungalow... and look out onto my little postage stamp of yard... I have to say that it's just plain hard sometimes.
When the guy you've loved... and has been such a sweet guy to you... suddenly feels a million emotional miles away... this talk of atoms and protons and different levels of consciousness... it all kind of goes up in smoke.
So... the area I'm working on... is first forgiving myself for falling out of love... and second... giving myself permission to open up to life... even when... or especially when it's painful and I'm vulnerable.
I'm such a believer in love... and LOVE... and so I'm searching to understand hos to make sense of it all in this moment.
If you've got insights... I'm all ears... but I don't expect you to solve my problem for me... I know it's a personal journey that I'm on.
And don't let me freak you out... like I let Tom's searingly honest post do to me.
Love is the Only Power (?!??)
Jonnie
Jonnie,
ReplyDeleteSorry you're going through a tough time -- and you're right, I think, nobody but you will come up with the right answers for you (though I'm always amazed by how much I learn from others).
Here's all I can tell you from my experience -- the more real we are as we go through these kind of tough times -- the more wisdom and compassion we gain from the experience.
You and I have only had the chance to hang out a few times -- but from being around you, it's obvious that you exude that Higher Love you talk about. I know when we're hurting that it's easy to lose that connection or that presence -- but it's still there. Sometimes it's just beneath the resistance we have to what's happening -- just one layer removed from our judgment and self-recriminations. Being willing to allow ourselves to be loved (or be love itself) during such times is challenging, but tremendously rewarding when we finally let go.
Sometimes falling out of love happens the way falling in love does -- all of sudden, unexpectedly. But the Deeper Love that is the undercurrent of your life (and your relationships)is always there, even if when those relationships are in the midst of changing their form(I think it's that universal ground of being that the science crowd is talking about).
So to any and all of us, who've ever shared in the type of pain and loss that Jonnie and Tom have both expressed, I offer a genuine hope, vision, and prayer of our deeper healing (the realization of our innate wholeness) that's available through this part and every part of our journey.
Sincerely,
Christopher
Jonnie,
ReplyDeleteI am sorry to hear of your loss. I wish we could all find a way to work things out. Its hard as everyone has said.
I am sorry for posting such a heavy topic. I am very open and tend to just share everything.
I wish you the best, and I am learning that it will be OK. The only thing that matters is that those kids are loved and provided for because we brought them into the world and all they have is us.
Best,
Tom
Christopher,
ReplyDeleteWow, that was awsome, what a true statement about love.
I guess if I can try to be love, then I wont have to go looking for it as they say because that is who I choose to be.
Love,
Tom
Thanks, Christopher for reminding me of who I am. Breaking up with Love is really the way that feels right for me... whether he is able to do the same or not... though I think me coming from a place of Love will allow him to be in that space more easily.
ReplyDeleteAs I've been re-reading some of our past conversations... being nostalgic I guess... or trying to find a hint of something that might help me understand where I was... and why things turned out the way they did...I noticed something that has been a constant thread to this beautiful tapestry we've all be weaving together in our blog... and that is the struggle between head and heart... between our ego... and our soul.
This is the daily challenge for us on this planet it would seem... at least it is for me... to choose Love... which is unlimited... selfless... so full of compassion... for ourselves and others... or to choose our head... which has such radiant logic at times... but is too often unforgiving... and suffers from small mindedness. It seems that's where our ego gets so confused... it forgets that we are all connected...
I'm so grateful to be connected to all of you!
Love is the Only Power,
Jonnie
P.S. And thanks to Tom... as for me there's no need to apologize... your words invited me to deal with what was going on in my own life and to trust that I could share it here safely.
It's been more than a few months since I last made an entry in this community conversation. To be honest, I chose to stop participating because the nature of the topics being discussed here, and the freedom with which people confronted their fears, was to me quite frightening. Now that may sound silly to many of you who have obviously pursued the course of self-discovery for years. For me, however, it was as if everything in my life was gradually falling apart, in spite of my tedious, but diligent attempts to keep it together.
ReplyDeleteNow, months later, I realize that life does go on -- after being fired from my teaching job -- after having some of my most treasured relationships fall apart. Reading of Jonnie's recent loss, touched me greatly as a result -- and I wanted to reach out to you, dear, and let you know that you will heal, as I am healing. I have complete trust in this marvelous ability we possess.
It's not likely that I will rejoin the conversation here, though I think I have grown so very much from my interactions with many of you. I have a new teaching assignment in Alaska that begins this summer and so I am preparing to sell my house, give away so many of my possessions, which previously would have seemed inconceivable. Life is beginning anew for me, at the spry age of 52. If that doesn’t generate a ray of hope, well then perhaps you’ll find something else to inspire you.
In conclusion, I thank Christopher for creating this forum that, for me, was very confronting, but not surprisingly also led me to a deep self-examination which has quite literally set me free.
My deepest respect and fondest wishes for you all,
BV
Good evening my fine colleagues. This discussion has much fragmentation but I believe that is symptomatic of our understanding in this time.
ReplyDeleteMr. Christopher's invitation for us to combine ideas of the spiritual with what is worldly is well intended and I have been seeking the words to do this with some justice.
The fine model of consciousness created by our three science colleagues also provides a means of examination of this idea. However, I do find concern I will say, in the idea that consciousness has been placed in multiple dimensions in this model. It is curious that we explain using a hierarchy or stratification as if the energy of creation were as such. This idea creates a mental image that is not accurate for it does not demonstrate the holistic and endless nature of energy. I mean to say that the same energy manifests in an endless variety at once. It is all the same energy when it appears as photon, particle or wave as you may say or as Brahman, Atman, Emotional, and Physical. Energy is manifesting at all of these ways at one moment.
This understanding is very old and it is laudable that scientists are now beginning proving this to themselves. But my desire is to explain that transformation, as you say, or and the creation of our economy are also not separate. An economy is merely an outward appearance of the inner understanding. It is the means by which we utilize and distribute our resources as it has been said. But it is most important for us to realize that the outer conforms to what is held as true at the inner or invisible. An economy that rewards greed and unfair practices cannot be remedied by merely changing the outer system. The inner workings of the heart of people must first be aligned. Inner vision must be refocused upon an understanding of how a whole system benefits all.
As an example, in Indian lands, this enlightenment in journey across various levels of awareness is called (arth shastra). By application of arth shasthra, people can enjoy material benefits of livelihood and learn laws of nature and free their intellect from its bondage. Arth shastra only has message to co-exist with laws of nature without a need of becoming owner of the nature and without worrying of expectation in return from others.
If the intellect is tied to several expectations, one is never at peace to understand of universal laws and door to freedom is shut. This begins in our lives each day with our family and in our village or city. Pay attention to what drives your economy and you will see where you may be attached. Look closely, and do not be too quick to say that all is fine in my house.
It is also of interest to me that there is talk of transformation as if a person actually changed their nature. Nature has not changed for it is always complete. It is our seeing of things that changes. It is where we focus our inner sight that creates the lens through which our outer sight sees.
I am having difficulty with these words and am in hopefulness that some may understand what I am laboring to say. This conversation is very vital for us to continue. I will end for now and hope for others to explain in a more suitable fashion.
Sunjab
Thank you, Sunjab for opening the door for my comments.
ReplyDeleteI will tell you all of a conversation that no one in my sector of the world wants to have. It deals with animals -- animals that are used in testing human therapeutics. We have our guidelines for "humane" treatment, but let's be clear. There is no possibility that we would tear humans away from their natural environments; or have breeding programs to ensure that they have certain genetically-based disease profiles. There is no way that we would do to humans what we give ourselves permission to do to these innocents day after day after day because we are the superior species and they are merely dumb animals who do not feel or know any better. This hollow argument has become shattered in the light of what “science” now knows about the animal psyche.
You must know that this conflict gnaws at my soul every day and each time I set foot in my world at the workplace. What we do is wrong. I fundamentally feel that at the very center of my being. But I allow it. I do not speak up anywhere that counts. To do so is to eliminate oneself from the career path. I am not willing to do so. I have sold my soul and allow this inhumane cruelty to persist. I attempt to soothe my guilt by saying it's for the good of humankind. But this argument has grown unfathomably emptier over time as I watch what we allow to happen to even our own species.
My awakening to the “deeper truths” of existence has left me with what seems to be inescapable conflict -- a suffering that I am sure does not come close to equaling that which we cause upon the victims in our labs. I do not expect answers to this dilemma for I believe this is beyond answers. But I would appreciate your perspectives on how you deal with the gross contradictions of integrity that take place in your own life.
Ellio
Dearest Ellio,
ReplyDeleteWe do not know each other, but every time I read your words, my heart goes out to you. You seem to be a man of wonderful compassion and deep sensitivity who struggles to live and work in a world which denies the importance of both of these qualities.
Your heart and mind have reached a crossroads and it is time for you to decide. You may choose to stay in your current situation, say nothing, and reap the ensuing chaos upon your body and your life. Such an outcome is unavoidable when we act out of harmony with the truth of our soul.
You may speak up from within your current situation. This, as you have stated, will likely put your career and your livelihood (and perhaps that of your family) at risk. This is the approach I first selected when dealing with my own most recent issue of conscience. I'm not sure in the end that anything I said or did from that place amounted to more than discrediting my position and credibility at large. I became laughable and I am now beginning to see why. Self-righteousness is so seldom an attractive quality.
You may also choose to quietly walk away and find a path that is more in alignment with who you've allowed yourself to become (which I have the sneaking suspicion is a lot closer to the truth of who you actually are). Here you may find peace, a chance to recover from the conflict you've experienced and from that place you may decide if and how you may want to pursue any possible course of action to raise awareness and become a cause for change.
Remember that staying and choosing to do nothing is an active choice with consequences. Continuing to suffer is so often just another way to be self-important.
Thus, may you weigh your options and then, if I may be so bold as to encourage you in one direction or another, follow your heart. Had I taken the advice that I now give to you, I would perhaps have made a similar choice to the one I've now made, but could have done so with so much less chaos, strife, and blame.
Most of all, I want you to know that we are all out of integrity, as you say, with areas of our own life. That it is painful when we are in such a state is nature's way of letting us know we are need of a course correction -- at least that's what I've come to believe.
I will hold you in my heart and pray for your own deeper wisdom to guide you.
Sincerely,
Barbara
Sunjab, for being the person who most often apologizes for his English, you are the one of all of us who has managed to most effectively encapsulate the issues we are grappling with and to highlight the crucial connection between spirituality and economy. Arth shastra is a wonderful place to start any journey like this. You have the right of it, I think. I have been sitting a lot lately with the Buddhist idea of “right livelihood”, which probably describes some of the same territory. The idea that where your living comes from matters a lot, and probably in ways many of us don’t typically appreciate, is a very important one. The idea of living as though how one makes a living does matter in ways far beyond our own awareness is a compelling one.
ReplyDeleteAnd Ellio, thank you for sharing your experience at such a raw level. Your post puts us right up against the creature itself, to be sure. I think perhaps one of the reasons we’ve come to another of our slowdowns is just that issue. This is the place on the map that says “Here Be Dragons.” From here, there’s no manual but the one we create ourselves.
Maybe there’s a possibility that your experience of what we’re doing to the animals might not be much different from your experience of what we’re doing to ourselves? Is the inhumanity of what we’re doing to rats somehow more “inhumane” than what we are doing to each other, who after all, are really nothing more than the smartest monkeys? Even if we go down the old road and somehow manage to get convince ourselves that we are “higher” because of our cortical equipment, then the cruelty and “inhumanity” we subject each other to every day becomes even more intolerable, doesn’t it? I’ve always wondered why it’s easier to express compassion for the suffering of animals than it is to express compassion for the sufferings of people, not because the sufferings of animals are any more or less worthy than the sufferings of people, but because it’s ALL suffering, isn’t it? It’s kind of a telling historical factoid that that American Society For The Prevention of Cruelty To Children was created AFTER the Society For Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and with a great deal of help from the ASPCA’s founder.
The question is not about which is more important, human or animal suffering. The question is why we tolerate the level of suffering we do ANYWHERE in order to maintain our “economic” standing. Why are hierarchies are necessary?
Thank you. It is refreshing to have people tell me the simple truth and remind me that I am deciding, even by remaining in indecision.
ReplyDeleteBarbara, it sounds as if you have faced your dragons and survived. This is encouraging. I do know what I must do. I simply want to find the most responsible, best way to do it.
More to come, I am sure of this. But I can hear my father's voice and that of my grandfather and of my other ancestors encouraging me to follow the call of Spirit. I have come full circle, my friends. And now the rite of passage I thought I had bypassed years ago has come back to dance with me once again.
"Here Be Dragons." I like this idea. Gives me a sense of adventure and courage.
With much gratitude,
Ellio
A quick editorial note:
ReplyDeleteAt BKO's request, I re-posted the comments he and Anonymous had written together and included her on the by-line.
This also required me to re-post Ellio's response in order to have it fit chronologically in the correct order. I do my best to leave your comments as written and in the time frame in which you submitted them. But occasionally I have to re-post and will always try to let you know when I've done so.
Thanks,
Christopher
A Happy morning to everyone. Bko and Anonymous, you are most kind. I agree also that this place where one's spiritual practice is tested in the daylight of how we live life is this place you say where dragons be. This dragon I believe to be our ego, the mind which has very near sighted vision. It only sees what it wants and does not understand or care about the future.
ReplyDeleteThis ego becomes contagious and can spread like disease in families, cities and companies. To illustrate there has been a great deal made of a company's ability to generate profit. To make a profit can be a very good thing. But this is too many times given such a great value that much else is ignored or hidden from view. But too often we overlook what is the cost of this profit on people and the soul of a community and on its future.
Someone must find a way to include such important factors into today's accounting practices. There is much need of us to begin to make such calculations in many areas. It will be then that the true costs may be subtracted from the profit and many times it will be visible that much more is lost than gained.
This is what we are striving to do now in many parts of India. To have a calculation for other values in a way that people must examine the greater cost before making important decisions. Much trouble can be saved from occuring if we are successful in this way.
You see this comes when one considers all resources as of great importance. Then a wisdom that is much deeper is able to be seen and understood by many more people and the very short sight of greed becomes very plain to see.
But there is a much greater Law of Economics that works in the Universe. If givers harbor an idea of ownership and expect something from their recipients; then the giver itself is bound by expectation and will loose his/her unlimited capacity of procreation. Leonardo da Vinci, Pablo Picasso, Newton, Einstein, Maxwell and other great scientists and saints did not find accounting making any sense because they understood this greater law.
When we speak that spirituality must be put into our economy then my colleagues we are expressing a very simple truth. That is what is expressed in the Law of Karma (the most fundamental physical economic principle). Each action we take will be cause to many effects. If we do not look from a far away mountain top to see a greater view we may believe that there is no effect. Our world has grown too dangerous a place for this to continue. Many souls are at risk and our knowledge of such tragedies creates great weight upon us for our choices.
But Mr. Ellio is very wise to see that these choices are close to home. They awake with us each morning and rest with us each night. He shares a very important lesson that I must carry with me.
Sunjab
I'm quite intrigued by this discussion and the synchronicity of what is simultaneously going on in the lives of me and my clients (BKO often refers to this as his "meta-experience"). With that in mind, is anyone familiar with "The Heart Math Solution"? Probably "old hat" to some of you, but I'm just looking into it because one of my clients is very interested in that process and how it might assist their organization.
ReplyDeleteIf any of you have any experience with this, I'd love your insight on how this applies to our discussion here.
Thanks,
Christopher
P.S. Ellio, if you'll speak with JJ she'll share the details of my own process of dealing with the types of ethical dilemmas that lead to very hard and seemingly risky decisions. As I think you know, there's a door on the other side of that decision that leads to far deeper alignment and a richer prosperity for the soul.
Hello, I was referred to your blog by a colleague who refers to herself as Dot P. on this web site. She felt that my experience with what has become know as the Heart Math Solution would be helpful in regard to the question asked by Christopher Harding.
ReplyDeleteAfter scanning the various comments by those participating in this conversation, I find that "Heart Math" is indeed relevant. To state it most simply, the Heart Math solution is, pure and simple, utilizing bio feedback techniques in order to lower one's heart rate, and thus alter one's body chemistry, in order to arrive at a more peaceful and rational state.
An elevated heart rate and the various correllary responses from the human endocrine system signal to the body that there is a clear and present danger. The body naturally, in response to such signals, goes into fight or flight mode and assigns, via default genetically programmed pathways, critical decision making to the most primitive portions of the brain which were designed for raw survival. The irony is, of course, that we seldom experience the level of genuine threat that would require such responses. Thus we are seemingly victims of a certain genetic lag in programming that would provide us a more reasonable response.
Learning to control one's response through various breathing and meditative techniques serves a very practical purpose in enabling an individual to remain calm and to continue accessing higher brain functions in order to respond more astutely to the circumstances one faces.
The idea of, however, that the heart provides the highest order of thinking is still very controversial. Studies certainly indicate that the heart does possess a far great neural network than every previously supposed. This does not, however, suggest that the type of process engaged in by such a network is capable of higher order thought.
That notion might not be popular with those who have gathered here to encourage one another toward the more mystical interpretations of "physics" and "science" but I think if you are interested in a balanced discussion you must certainly agree that your conversations stray beyond the edges of what is considered to be reasonable by the vast majority of the scientific and medical community.
I'm not sure if my comments have been helpful, but I have fulfilled my colleague's request and respectfully offer a toast to each of you for you willingness to explore uncharted waters.
Kindly,
Dr. Joseph H.
Welcome Dr. Joseph, and thank you for generously sharing your assessment of our communal conversation. Though you may certainly have rather forgotten, I believe we met at a conference in Toronto last year. I’m the rather large chap who spilled punch on your shoe.
ReplyDeleteYour comments have stimulated several questions in my "mystically scientific mind," which I find myself irresistibly drawn to pose.
Would you agree that when the heart operates at a slower pace and endocrine secretions are mediated to provide one a more serene state of mind, one is then able to access higher-order thinking and thus utilise an elevated level of what has become known as emotional intelligence?
If so, and since we now have evidenced that the heart does indeed send signals to the brain and often ignores signals coming from the brain; and since this slowing of the heart does effect the electrical activity of the brain and the entire body human; would it therefore be unreasonable to suppose that the heart's neural network might, in fact, provide critical signals which enable a person to access advanced levels of thinking, creativity, and -- might we dare say -- consciousness?
Is it also not true that one of the most effective means of re-setting the body’s state is to generate heart-centered feelings of love, appreciation, and gratitude (not thoughts about those characteristics)? Has it also not been reported repeatedly in a variety of experiments on this subject that test subjects not only report that these feeling emanate from the heart, but that the electromagnetic field generated by test subjects’ hearts substantially increased in direct correlation to their generation of such feelings?
Please, good lad, don’t make too much of my cheeky attitude for it’s all in good fun. But I am curious as to your response and what you might suggest is occurring in these instances I have cited. I would suggest it’s not the least bit mystical and yet is much more spectacular than you appear willing to consider.
Respectfully,
KBF, Ph.D., Ph.D.
P.S. Since we appear to be whipping out our advanced degrees, I thought I'd show mine. Is that crass of me?
P.P.S. Dot P. you're such a nasty bird for having invited your friend to our party knowing how we can be -- and then to email me goading me into a response. Joseph should know better than to trust you.
My father and I send you our good wishes this evening. He is well and may return soon to write more with you.
ReplyDeleteAs I read your conversation it seems that we human beings are often very stubborn for we forget over and over that nature operates as whole system. This is also true of human generated economy.
I found my father chuckling the other day and asked him why he laughs. He wiped tear from his eye and said with great sadness, “I am reading about bees in America. They still looking for single cause and do not understand that whole system is failing. No single cause will be found.”
I encourage you to consider this understanding as you write together. We are not isolated from our world or the effects we cause. They are one and same. Spirit and human, there is no boundary. Economy, spirit, heart, thought. These are not different things, but different manifestations of same. It is very simple, but we want to complicate.
It was once said, “Walk in the garden to smile upon the flowers knowing that your very presence has wrought life and death in every step. Breathe in breathe out, it is all there.”
Nyguen
Greetings Nyguen. How delightful to have you re-join us. Please pass along our greetings to your father and let him know we look forward to him perturbing us again soon. Nothing added to the pleasure of my Saturday morning ritual of coffee and blog, more than hearing from you and our dear Trinh. It has turned a rather drizzly, dreary morning here in the Big Apple into one of great warmth.
ReplyDeleteOn a more ignoble note, KBF, dear, you've been punked! I schemed with Joe that if he entered our conversation and was even slightly patronizing about one of your pet topics, that we'd finally draw you out. You've been so stodgy lately and unwilling to play. He most certainly agrees with most of your thoughts on the topic though he does not claim to fully understand or necessarily agree with the cause and effect relationships. "More study is needed," was I believe how he put it.
Speaking of drawing people out, where did our ThomasGall go? He's been totally absent from our conversation. Does anyone know if he is all right?
I have been thinking a great deal about the comment made by bko and Anonymous. Today having read the new remarks by our friend Nyguen, I have come to very clear realization that the heart of most of our world's problems -- and certainly the vast majority of my challenges and dilemmas are due to having divided our world -- or as my wife says, compartmentalizing our life.
ReplyDeleteThe conflicts that tear at our hearts and cause pain to our souls come because we have divided ourselves. We have separated, in a very artificial manner, our heart, soul, and mind -- and have acted as if our life is something independent from others and from the world. This is such a confusing path that we have created for ourselves -- and our science and corporate ethics are what they are because we have acted as if we are something other than human -- something other than deeply connected to life.
This comprehension is profound to me at this time and I am not sure I am finding the right words to express what I feel. Hopefully you have also experienced what I am writing about so that we can discuss this.
Ellio
It’s nice of you to ask about me. Christopher dropped me a note last week.
ReplyDeleteI was able to work things out with my wife. She just needs space. She is taking medication Lexpro and Amadan to calm her anxiety and aggression. I suspect when she finally gets a diagnosis, it will be Bi Polar. I saw the same behavior in my dad growing up. We are not divorcing, we are getting counseling, and I will stay at my mom’s house, and we are splitting custody.
I finally realized I couldn’t fix the world, so I am allowing space for it to be.
I was stumped with the conversation about animal experiments. My greatest concern with the practice is that the data isn’t shared, so too often the experiments are duplicated. But the context of the conversation was different so I had nothing to add. I was a lab tech in Germany when my professor was working on an experimental blood expander; we did human & animal trials. We know more about animals because of these experiments then humans. We used to not experiment on women, and now that things have changed, we discover there are many differences. The brain was the realm of the spirit, not to be messed with, but now we know great things about the human brain. Of course modern technology made a big difference in understand the brain.
I am a bit out of my league in this conversation, but I am listening and learning, things are getting better in my economy. The Zen Center here as given my family a great place to expander our consciousness, and the "Big Mind" therapy sessions are amazing Gestalt ways to achieve higher consciousness.
Thomas, I'm very glad that you've sought appropriate counseling and have found a spiritual home. I wish you the very best as you work through your family circumstances. Such dynamics are seldom easy, but you should take comfort in the fact that you've had the courage and integrity to face them and deal with your situation responsibly.
ReplyDeleteRegarding our conversation here, one should never feel intimidated about a topic. We're merely exploring a subject that we don't fully comprehend. If you don't entirely grasp what is being discussed, simply ask questions. You can guess that you'll be giving voice to queries that others are too hesitant to ask.
Dot P.
Ellio... my rockin' compatriot... of course we understand what you're facing... and feeling... or at least we’re pretty damned close. That’s why we’re all here... in our little corner of the blogosphere working it all out.
ReplyDeleteJust my observation... but it sounds like you're at the place where I was... when I first met Christopher and talked his ear off for two hours.
It all gets better dude... if you keep at it you'll get to the place where the contradiction gets so strong that you f#%king explode in your head... but that's a good thing... cause then you just speak your truth... and live your life as honestly as you can... knowing that it's all going to be what it is... you know? You stop trying to make it all fit... you just quit trying to f#%king fit in... cause you realize you don't and it's such a rockin' relief.
Love all your beautiful souls,
JJ
P.S. I'm heading your way in two weeks Ellio man... we'll talk.
KBF, against my better judgment, I allowed myself to play into Dot’s prank. Nonetheless, since I've entered your conversation, let me add just a couple of additional comments which are not designed to provoke anything other than one's thinking. (I actually would prefer waiting for KBF to provide much of this information, but since he had not responded and I am going to be deeply absorbed in my work over the next week, I wanted to offer any apology if necessary and state a case with which he will likely not only agree, but also in all probability have far more direct experience.)
ReplyDelete"Heart Math," which is a term coined by Doc Childre, Howard Martin and their team, in the broader sense advocates nothing new (and I mean no disrespect toward these individuals who have provided a very worthwhile thesis for their work). It is simply the truth that the fundamentals of much of this work have been in existence for thousands of years (and I am sure they would not hesitate to agree with me on this point). Now, however, because we are finding ways to measure the effects of meditation and other techniques which enable one to slow down the heart rate and stimulate "positive" emotions, we have packaged these ideas as if we just discovered them.
With my own biased disclaimers out of the way, let me go on to say that there is an important principle which I feel the aforementioned authors do bring to light in terms of the topic of spirituality and economics which you have currently undertaken -- and that is the notion of coherence as it applies to human dynamics.
Briefly, the principle of coherence (which is a fundamental operating principle in nature) simply states that the more coherent (or in harmony) a system is, the more energy efficient it is (or conversely the less energy it expends while functioning).
Thus, when one is in “harmony” with oneself, team, etc., one is able to rise to a level of peak performance more easily because all systems are at optimum performance levels. On the other hand, when we are in resistance to reality, for example, we expend a great deal of time and energy resisting the truth. If we were to become coherent of or in harmony with a given reality, we then enable ourselves to make a more effective decision as to how one wants to respond to that reality and then move forward with as much clarity and focus as one possesses (instead of allowing energy drains to weaken one's response ability).
From a biological standpoint, I believe this principle points us in an obvious direction. As one might imagine the impact of on-going resistance (incoherence) has a very real effect on our biological system as heat is created through contraction and resistance, energy is drained or dissipated, inflammation is induced, flow is impeded, etc. (under such conditions one has created the perfect environment for disease to flourish).
I believe the same principle applies to families, communities, organizations, and so forth.
In summary, coherence generates a naturally efficient system which is naturally able to produce more, with less energy expended. Since you are considering these principles as it might apply to manifesting one’s vision into physical reality, the principle of coherence seems to be of particular value.
I would also suggest that, in accordance with the model detailed by the aforementioned three musketeers of your group that the “further” one moves from the initial point of intention (from a standpoint of "levels" of consciousness) the greater the likelihood is that coherence will decrease (and thus the accuracy of one’s manifestation will correspondingly decrease). This is perhaps obvious.
This leads me to one final supportive comment. As I scanned through a variety of the discussion held previously on this blog, it appears that there is a certain contingent that consistently gives voice for the suggestion that if one is “out of alignment” with one’s own internal self (and this is regardless of which level(s) at which such dissonance occurs), one is likely to create outcomes that are not what one "intended" and are thus confusing and seemingly out of alignment. Thus incoherence also (as the term might apply) creates further confusion and misalignment.
I'm interested in hearing your responses, but certainly respect the fact that my intrusion upon your conversation does not grant me the right to so expect.
A good afternoon to you all,
Joe
Joseph, you irreverent ace, no apologies needed. I might well have expected that the nefarious Dot was behind your uncharacteristically patronizing response (she was most correct, however, in predicting my stroppy response as she is well aware of my boorish nature).
ReplyDeleteAlas, onto your more pertinent comments. You are correct, good sir, in suggesting that I might agree with the suppositions you have offered on this topic. I would, however, add on more very essential comment to your statements. Coherence not only enables one to operate more efficiently (from the standpoint of energy usage), but in so doing stimulates the very chemicals that enable the brain to drawn upon its higher-order thinking capacity. Incoherence, on the contrary, stimulates the chemicals that trigger our survival response and thus the operational override capacity of our limbic brain. There are those who suggest that a variety of biochemical disorders experienced by we humans are fundamentally a direct physical manifestation of one’s profound inner disharmony.
Thus, what we are quite accurately suggesting I believe, if one considers this process more closely, is that there is vast and exponential difference in the types of responses that one will experience biologically (and thus physically, emotionally, and mentally) which are critically dependent upon one’s level of coherence. I would further propose that one’s inner-alignment directly impacts one’s ability to operate with any degree of intentionality from more transcendent levels of consciousness.
Whether this hypothesis has any relevance to what others have intended for this conversational space is possibly another matter entirely. Thus, since midnight fast approaches, I will retire for the evening and bid you all a good night.
The Fat Batard Himself,
KBF
KBF or Dot P,
ReplyDeleteI ask both of you because I know that Dot P has direct knowledge of the neural chemicals you are discussing KBF, and I am not aware of your back ground yet...
Anyways, obviously oxygen is the energy that allows for brain functioning. Specifically when we are drunk, we are very much in our limbic reactionary brain. When we are doing an (Zen) Aikido breathing technique, we bring in great amounts of oxygen and create a stillness that allows for imagination or nothingness to be in a higher consciousness’ meditative state.
You mentioned neural chemicals that allow for upper brain and lower brain. Which are these; there is so much I don’t understand about the human brain. Sodium and Potassium energy signals across a synaptic gap? These things confuse me. What are all these neural peptides and various chemicals that function to make our upper and lower brains to what they do? I mean specifically which do what and how…
allowing us to be in our lower or upper brain?
KBF is equally capable of answering your questions since he’s been studying the science of peak experience and creativity for several decades. However, since I know he's rather involved and on a dramatically different time zone, I'll reply.
ReplyDeleteSo as to keep this discussion very simple and not create too great of a tangential departure, let me break it down into the basics (and this will be a vast over-simplification).
There are a series of primary chemicals that the body produces which are released into the bloodstream and thus make their way to the brain and other organs. These chemicals situationally stimulate different responses within the body. Bio-feedback is basically a technique which is designed to mediate these chemical responses and intentionally bring the biological system from a reactionary mode into an intentionally responsive mode (from fear to calm, for example, in order to allow one a greater number of options than might be experienced from the menu called “fight or flight").
Included in the bio-chemical mix are norepinephrine (released by the adrenal glands) This chemical acts as both a neurotransmitter and a hormone. In the peripheral nervous system, it is part of the fight-or-flight response. It is this response that we euphemistically refer as activating the “lower” or more primitive part of the brain (the limbic brain, while it performs a number of functions is also associated with the fight or flight response -- its primary mission under such circumstances is one’s survival).
On the other end of the continuum, one might say, is dopamine, the neurotransmitter that produces feelings of pleasure when released by the brain reward system. Dopamine has multiple functions depending on where in the brain it acts. But higher dopamine levels are often associated with transcendent experiences and higher level creativity (again we casually refer to this as “higher” brain functioning). Extremely high dopamine levels are believed to be associated with psychotic breaks.
Not to be confusing, but in switching from chemical to electrical, more elevated states of consciousness often occur when the brain’s electromagnetic frequency is operating at a lower level. For example, the "normal" frequency of the waking human brain is said to be around 12 Hz -- the "beta" state. On the other hand, while brains are deep in meditative trance the signal dips down to around 8 Hz, the "alpha" state.
Coming full circle, as it might relate to “Heart Math”, the more one is able to keep one’s heart rate lower and one’s mindset calm, one’s body responds by generating the chemical mix of “well-being” which lead to more relaxed responses and enable one to function more on a whole-brained level (thus theoretically enabling one to access one’s full intelligence or consciousness potential). This state of being would be associated with "peak experiences."
There are a handful of other primary bio-chemicals that also interact with the brain, but this basic explanation should suffice to provide context for this conversation.
I’m hoping this was helpful.
Dot P.
Dot P,
ReplyDeleteThank You.
I have a bachelor in psychology, so I have just enough knowledge to get what you’re saying. I should have taken the Neural Psychology class...and not failed Organic Chemistry and Cellular Biology which made me drop premed. I couldn’t transition into theory after working with such brilliant minds in medical research at Joann Goethe University & US Military Hospital before University of Sacramento, California.
You didn’t include some other names like Serotonin, are there others and what do they do?
I did take a sleep psychology class with a brilliant professor that was dying of MS; he died later that year; he made it through the class with assistants and lots of speed. But the frequency stuff made sense...
I suffered a car accident and a direct blow to my upper left front lobe from a metal bar; 13 stitches when I was 7 years old. I was diagnosis with Hyperactivity as a child at age 5; they didn’t have the name ADHD in 1973'... Anyways, my theory is that my hyperactivity has to do with lower levels of dopamine in my genetic family history. I.E. It was advantageous to have lower levels of dopamine to motivate cave men, but in modern times it works against us. So my hyperactivity in my younger years caused me to have a very addictive personality.
Yet... I have had a lot of peak experiences, lucid dreaming, and higher consciousness’ experiences, although my theory says I have lower dopamine, and am always trying to find ways to increase my dopamine... Am I off here?
Best,
Tom
Best,
Tom
Thomas, I’m reluctant to get into this topic too deeply as it is one of great complexity and thus it becomes easy to have one's comments be misinterpreted. Nonetheless, to address one of your questions, yes, serotonin is one of the other primary brain-related chemicals to which I alluded.
ReplyDeleteIn regard to your other comments and to give you a bit more context, norepinephrine is released when a whole menageire of physiological changes are set off by a stressful event or, as many believe, are level set by dietary habits and other physical and emotional environmental constants. The release of norepinephrine is caused in part by the activation of an area of the brain stem. This area is believed to be the origin of most norepinephrine pathways in the brain. Neurons that are activated by norepinephrine project bilaterally (in other words they send signals to both sides of the brain) from the brain stem area along distinct pathways to many locations throughout the neural network, including the cerebral cortex, the limbic system, and the spinal cord.
The interplay of norepinephrine and dopamine both play a role in transcendent experiences though the precise nature of their interaction is still a subject requiring much more study.
Regarding your comment about hyperactivity, norepinephrine, along with dopamine have also come to be recognized as playing a large role in attention and focus. As you most certainly have become aware, people who have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD are often prescribed psychostimulant medications such as Ritalin/Concerta, Dexedrine, and Adderall, which are prescribed because they are believed to help increase levels of norepinephrine and dopamine.
Personally I am not a fan of such medications as an initial treatement. For the sake of our conversation here, and not as advice, I am far more interested in mediating the body’s chemistry through diet, bio-feedback, meditation, control of one's environment, and other techniques (that is not to say that medication is not appropriate in a variety of circumstances and one’s own physician is of course best suited to provide advice on the subject).
Since you have a background and interest in the field, you may also be aware that differences in the norepinephrine system are now implicated in depression. This is, however, still theoretical since we are not entirely sure precisely how these interactions actually occur or impact brain activity. Many of the antidepressants that have been administered in recent years are serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors that treat depression by increasing the amount of serotonin and norepinephrine available to postsynaptic cells in the brain. This is because these drugs work by inhibiting reuptake (in other words they prevent the serotonin and norepinephrine transporters from capturing these chemicals and re-using them).
Finally, to draw us back to our real topic at hand, while brain chemistry certainly plays a role in one’s state of mind, KBF, Nigel, and I are very much of the opinion that our overall state of being -- spiritual, physical, mental, emotional -- are all inextricably connected. Therefore it is would seem that to reductionistically go after one aspect without also taking into account the others is folly. For this reason we are intensely interested in the holistic approach to this topic.
Dot P.
ReplyDeleteThat answers a lot of my questions.
My father in 1973 didn’t know what to do with me. They tried giving me one Ritalin with no effect, two knocked me out. So he decided to not give me drugs, instead he exposed me to many countries and languages through the world. This worked well for him because he was on sabbatical in so many different places through the world and his CIA work delivering packages. My father had UN-diagnosised Bi Polar; he is a genius speaking over 14 languages fluently...He is finally on the right medication. My poor mother had to deal with my father all those years, so I can relate with my current wife’s problem.
I have found that after 30 my hyperactivity focus problems went away, but my addictive personality to drugs and tobacco have lasted a life time. I have never suffered depression or anxiety. I am quite outgoing, but tend to change too much as I have learned moving some 60 times in my life I can quit and start over...
Best,
Tom
I will need to study the subject more to figure this out. My kids will not be put on any medication
This discussion has been most intersting -- from brain chemistry to economics and beyond.
ReplyDeleteTaking the temperature of these discussion is always a delicate matter, but it seems that it's the perfect time to evolve the discussion further and open a new topic.
What I want to invite us to do is take Dot P.'s suggestion and address the topic of transformation and economy as one more focused discussion.
So please, rather than add further comments here, read the new topic and continue the conversation there.
Thanks!
Christopher
I must admit, this caster dr.marnish is real. i called dr.marnish +15036626930 when my boyfriend departed from me. but since my boyfriend came back I definitely believe dr.marnish@ yahoo.com is real
ReplyDeleteDaniella Terry