This topic is a continuation from our previous discussion on creativity (found two topics below this one -- Tapping into Our Genius with Unbounded Creativity). The exploration of wellness/healthcare is also still very much alive and is found directly below this topic (Idyllic, Inspiring Wellness Centers (and Other Genius-Inspired Healthcare Solutions).
For this round, it seems that the group that's assembled is interested in exploring the less predicatable, rough around the edges, messy, yet sublime side of creativity. There are some great comments in the previous topic that you may want to read to get in the flow of this topic. But then bounce right back to here to keep the flow going.
Let's dive in!
Views of those commenting have not been checked for accuracy and do not necessarily reflect the views of this blog publisher or his associates.
Monday, July 9, 2007
Genius Gone Wild... The Messy, Unpredictatble, Beautiful World of Creativity
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Thanks KBF... (I wanted to say Mr. KBF... but I don't know if you're a man or a woman, but it just felt like I was writing to a teacher, you know?).
ReplyDeleteBut anyway... it really helps me to kind of know what's going on in my head when I get really creative. I think its felt overwhelming mainly cuz I've let myself get scared... and cuz my friends get mad that I get so into it and everything... I don't know... but knowing all this is just what happens in my head helps... cuz it's not like I can't control it... maybe it's more like I feel so alive during those times. And maybe the rest of time I'm kind of more numbed out or something.
And hey to Rizzin... even though I've been bugged by you, your poems are really amazing. Your last one made me cry for some reason. And what Zee said, about nobody getting you... I understand that... cuz I think people don't get me most of the time. Sorry if I said things that made you feel bad.
Guess creativity can be messy for the person who's creating things and the one who sees what was created too.
Peace!
Lisa Lee
You know, as I was reading Lisa Lee's post before pushing it forward onto the site, it struck me as interesting that many people who are very creative often experience a sense of loneliness or of being misunderstood. I think it may relate to something KBF explained. Creativity, especially hyper-creativity is considered to be a "non-ordinary" state of consciousness. And I think we have defined it as "non-ordinary" because perhaps unfortunately it's not a normal mode of thinking for us anymore.
ReplyDeleteWhen you look back in history or even into the world of many indigenous tribes, the creative mind, mystical mind, or world of imagination (think of that image-i-nation -- a state of mind that generates images)... what we refer to as non-ordinary was perhaps much more a part of daily living.
So when Lisa Lee, or Rizzin, or any of us begin to get wrapped up in creativity or find ourselves absorbed in that world... we are, at times, viewed as non-ordinary.
A favorite psychology professor I had, at one point, explained to me that "normal" is a relative term that exists on a bell curve (in other words what most people do in a society or culture is considered "normal"). Anyone who strays too far from what is considered normal are considered to be "odd" or, if they go far enough, "crazy"... unless, he said, they're artists or people with a lot of money... then they're simply called "eccentric."
I believe accessing the non-ordinary state is an essential requirement for us to keep evolving, creating, staying alive as a culture and as a species. To BKO's point... yes creativity is, by it's very nature, often messy, out-of-control, and unpredictable because it so often finds us in uncharted territory... exploring or creating things that have not been created before (at least not for us).
KBF's explanation is very helpful as well... because I love the fact that we can actually set up the conditions for the volcano to erupt... we may not be able to predict what happens when it does... but, just as indigenous people (and people of every most every culture) have formed rituals to induce heightened states, we can form our own inductive processes to access (I believe it was Zee who said it) "the realm of the gods."
And when we do... it's anybody's guess at to what happens next.
I must say that I heartily agree and also strongly disagree with some of the statements and assessments made in the last topical conversation on creativity and in this current one.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, yes, BKO – controversy is not something that is appreciated or, at times, tolerated in many school systems and there are many reasons for that which I shall not elaborate upon at this moment. The long and the short of it, however, is that I do have to create ways of approaching potentially controversial subjects with some modicum of control or established boundaries (and, yes, it does require creativity to do so). And, while I may have lavished too much praise upon KBF out of my sense of appreciation of what s/he shared, the concrete approach which they provided regarding the subject of creativity is very helpful to me. My apologies if my exuberance was excessive.
What concerns me about the direction this topic has taken is that we appear to be suggesting that the “non-ordinary” state of consciousness is something so wonderful that it should simply be exhibited at any time and without boundaries of any kind. As one who currently teaches high-school-age students and who has also taught in a middle school setting, I must say that it is our students’ inability, unwillingness, or lack of training in terms of achieving focus on a topic that so often prevents them from actually learning.
Far too many times, it is also a parent’s yearning for excessive permissiveness that handcuffs the teacher and leads to the truly embarrassing responses from supposedly educated people who make fools of themselves on programs like Jay Leno’s “Jaywalking.” We may laugh at their ignorance, but it is truly a sign of a failed system and culture that has allowed convenience and the notion that “my child is creative” or "she's an indigo child" to take precedence over a real, meaningful education.
As romantic as it may sound, we are not indigenous people living in a paradisiacal jungle where time stands still and we are free to interact with the imaginary. We live, instead, in a world of time, and of responsibility and the requirement for superb performance. If I am not able to prepare my students to deal with what is now our “real” world, I am doing them a supreme disservice.
I very much appreciate—and please forgive my praise—KBF explaining that there are ways to create the conditions that allow creativity to take place in a specific time frame and under a more controlled circumstance. This enables me to allow my students the freedom to be creative, when the circumstance allows for it, and to utilize the other regions of their brain that facilitate concentration and focus when it is called for as well.
Creativity is a truly magnificent thing, yes. But let’s not pretend that it’s the cure-all in a world that requires standardization and compliance as well.
BV… Rizzin is moved by your words… because they’re your truth… remember… no apologies needed… not one. When IT speaks through you… my hair stands on end… the truth of your being… IT… you… BV.
ReplyDelete*****************
Anger… passion on fire… the heart of a lion too long caged. The words… wild… volcanic… erupting with pain… so much beneath the surface we can’t see…
The words… only a small part of the story… the rest lies simmering… pacing back and forth… back and forth… waiting… just waiting… for the right moment… to STRIKE!
*****************
Be you, BV… simply be you… and the world, in turn, will be more complete because the piece of the puzzle that is you… will finally be complete.
I have to say... BV kicked some of your butts today! Go teacher, go!
ReplyDeleteBV... I think a number of us may have been pleasantly taken aback by your wonderfully strong, honest words. However, if anyone has said anything to personally offend you, please accept my apology. That is certainly not the intent of this blog.
ReplyDeleteA couple of pieces of feedback for you to consider, if you choose.
While you've been a wonderful cheerleader and have provided great, positive feedback to many of us regarding our contributions, perhaps the most valuable contribution you can make, is to continue to speak with the level of candor you've shown today.
Our goal in this blog is to explore how genius can generate breakthrough ideas. Breakthroughs don't come from playing it safe. That doesn't mean we should be disrespectful or close-minded. It means that we are invited to share honestly what our ideas are (as you have just done). And, please BV, feel free to continue to compliment someone, if that's your honest response. Some of us may have a harder time than others accepting praise, but that's our issue to deal with.
Lastly, I caution all of us about jumping to conclusions about one another's remarks -- and about catostrophizing, or assuming that because someone expressed an opinion it was their entire thought on the matter or that it was intended to suggest that their idea should be implemented all of the time to the exclusion of any balanced approach. This type of reaction (and we've all proably played into it) simply isn't as likely to advance us to the level we might otherwise reach.
One last thought. Remember the simple rule, "Assume good intent." I've found that approach usually helps everything go much more smoothly and productively.
All of that said... congratulations BV! It's nice to see you (as MM suggests) kick some butt (even if one of them was mine).
Ohhhh... I just want to give everybody a hug. I don't like it when my blog family fights (<:
ReplyDeleteTruthfully BV, I appreciate your compliments. And I also was really impressed by KBF's explanation, BKO's challenge to us, Rizzin's poetry, Lisa Lee's courage, Zee's support for his friend, and best of all... Christopher's willingness to congratulate someone on kicking his butt (that just really makes me laugh -- oh, my god)!
But you know what's best? When I've been reading both of our blog topics today... there's an energy and a vitality that kind of leaps off the page. It's kind of electric. More of this, please! I like it!
Love's the Power!
Jonnie
To add my two bits to what has already been said, I'll use a quote from Cameron Crowe's film Jerry Maguire. During an argument between the sports agent and his client, the client says, "That's our problem, man. You think we're havin' a fight, and I think we're finally talkin'!"
ReplyDeleteThat conveys my feeling at this point about both strings better than any of my own words could!
BV, you shouldn't let the words of a cantankerous old bastard insult you. Your complimentary comments were perfectly fine.
ReplyDeleteBKO, I understand your point. I'm typically used to writing papers that are going to be reviewed by peers (which may actually be the case here too, though that's not my intent). I tried to tone it down some, but I'll practice letting myself get a little messier.
I enjoy the thought of having a creativity free-for-all. Heaven knows, this crowd certainly seems to be up for it... and our moderator entitled this topic appropriately -- Genius Gone Wild.
So, now that we have a little spaghetti sauce, a few meatballs, and some spinach salad on ourselves, let's continue down this road and see where it might lead.
And yes, I think we are finally talking because, as our resident poet Rizzin expressed, we got real, man.
If there's one thing I've learned from dancing around the laboratory with creativity -- the best stuff, the most authentic original blow-the-whiskers-off-your-face kind of creativity inspires us because it's the real deal.
Sincerely,
The Salty Old Guy
P.S. Some parting, perhaps messy, questions for your consideration.
Please be honest:
Are there some of you out there who genuinely think that you cannot begin to narrow down the most likely timeframes in your day in order to find the span in your bio-rhythmic cycle when you are most likely to be at your creative best?
Are you opposed to preparatory processes, modern rituals (or ancient ones, for that matter) that lead to transcendental, creative states?
Does the thought that creativity can be prepared for, or in some way intentionally stimulated, make it to sterile for you? Does it take away the romance?
Or are you just presenting a purist point of view?
Help me understand your perspective, if you are one who holds this point of view. I'm simply fascinated with the notion that creativity could be conceptualized as something so rigid or inflexible that it will only work if you wait for it to show up.
Could you perhaps think of inductive processes as something akin to making sure the mud puddle is good and sloppy before jumping in?
I haven't organized my thoughts very well here (I'll write it off to being "wild and free").
But, truth be told, I'm simply asking my probing, perhaps conceited, questions because I believe you may denying yourself a lot of fun by not allowing yourself to set aside some time for a little foreplay before your creative prince (or princess) arrives.
KBF... dude! Seems like you're trying to pick a fight with someone. If you're as old as you say you are... we may be small in numbers, but we'll likely hammer you.
ReplyDeleteSeriously... get out of your head... I think you're still in the lab... trying to use us for your experiments. So stop... okay?
I mean your your way of doing everything works, I'm sure. But trust me... there's been a whole lot of people who've been getting real creative before guys in lab coats started trying to "figure it all out."
Get real and tell us about your own experiences... your own creativity, you know?
And if your last comment was you being real... well, okay... nothing personal... but maybe you've been in the lab too long.
Hmmm... KBF, ZEE, et al... interesting mix here.
ReplyDeleteI've been contemplating a lot of the comments about creativity throughout this and previous topics. I have a couple of questions... for which I have my own notion... but I'd love to get your take on it.
The questions:
1. If it's not "original" can it still be creativity?
2. What is "original?"
My answers are:
1. Yes.
2. Anything that's new to you.
Last question, for which I don't have a full answer:
What is creativity?
ZEE, my brother... you're quick to defend your tribe... and that's cool, my friend.
ReplyDeleteBut we have a wize one in our midst... a wizard... who's travelled the pathways of the mind.
Rizzin says... let the salty one prove his worth to us... let's open up... listen...
I can learn from a tree... a wave... a flower... the sky.
Certainly a madman... one who's learned how to light the dry logs on his own... without waiting for the gods to throw fire from the sky... might share some wisdom for our souls.
Make you case, madman... what do you have to share with us that's of real worth?
I must admit that I came rather unglued while writing my last commentary. My outburst, however, was apparently viewed by this group as something positive (I found the group's response to be oddly refreshing).
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I was surprised to see that everyone responded so supportively and that my attempt to lash out seemed, in some odd way, to serve as inspiration for a number of you. This has been an interesting experience for me and I appreciate Christopher (and others) encouraging me to continue to be more frank and to take more risks.
I'm not sure that my answers to Christopher's questions will involve much risk, but since this group is becoming increasingly unpredictable, one never knows. Nonetheless, taking this simple step provides me a way to step back into the conversation without having to make a cold start.
So, to his point, can something that's not original to you still be categorized as creative?
I believe so. Here's my reasoning, which is purely based on my own experience (I have no scientific analysis to support it). I worked for several years for a publisher performing the role of an editor. In other words, over and over again I would help authors revise their manuscripts so that the story they were endeavoring to tell came across more clearly to the reader.
Now that might seem like a rather tedious task that would primarily involve "left-brain" thinking. For me, it was just the opposite. I found that as an author and I worked together to find just the right word, or the perfect combination of words, it was a most enlivening and, I believe, creative process.
I continue, in many ways, to play a similar role with students. I provide essentially the same lesson, multiple times a day. The material, therefore, is anything but new to me. My job is to make the lesson feel new, fresh and exciting to each group of students, so they feel they are discovering something with me for the very first time.
I see this undertaking as being very creative in nature. There is nothing original about the material since the same lesson is being re-presented, but I believe I have to be equally as creative as anyone involved in an original creation in order to successfully accomplish this feat.
My answer appears to be in agreement to Christopher’s own response. I am curious why you answered, yes, to your first question, Christopher. What was your reasoning?
If every moment is new... if each breath, a new breath... if all of life is constantly in the process of re-generation... then what is there in this life that is not original in every moment?
ReplyDeleteKBF asked “Are you opposed to preparatory processes, modern rituals (or ancient ones, for that matter) that lead to transcendental, creative states?”
ReplyDeleteI freely and happily report, in response to your question, KBF, that I, for one, participate in any number of ritualistic behaviors every day. Mostly so in order to accomplish exactly what you are referring to; namely transcendental, creative states (although I probably would have used a semantically different label). In my life that mainly means peace, quiet and the absence of work, children, cell phones and television. Quiet contemplation and joyous (and I know someone who will applaud and welcome my usage of that very word) appreciation of life appears to be the most creative state I can self-induce. And short of enforcing such practices every day I believe my creative levels and abilities would hit an all time low and never recover.
Preparing is, in many ways, the name-of-the-game for me. I found, once I became a mother, that predictability and opposition to rituals had become counterproductive behaviors. Life all of a sudden worked much better with some scheduling, for instance, added to the mix. Suddenly I had to schedule time to relax in order for it to happen.
I believe the same to be true about creativity. Your point is well taken. Creativity then becomes what you make of it. Whether it is with or without boundaries or starting points, I hold no illusions that creativity only happens spontaneously, although that is ONE way in which it sometimes occurs. Look, for instance, at what has happened here on our very blog. Our bickering has led Rizzin, our resident poet, to “spontaneously” react to whatever is going on by producing numerous ad-hoc poems. We have created, or facilitated if you like, an environment where his creative gene appears to be tickled enough to produce a response. Would he have done so without the blog to use as a back-drop for his creations?
Welcome. I am looking forward to interacting with you (and all the rest of what Jonnie so appropriately named the “blog-family”). I find this whole blog experience to be (much to my own surprise) invigorating, ritualistic and facilitated as though it may be.
I just read BV’s new post and am finding myself once again heartened by everyone’s willingness to get a little more raw with each other than we have been. I’m still all the way with Chris on the subject of kindness and mutual respect in our discourse, but I like seeing that people are allowing their honest, human, emotional experience to form at least one strand in their weaves. I don’t think we’ll get very far without it. In the last few days I’ve watched us dancing with chaos, with control, with form, with function, with anger, with fear, with science, with art, with drinking!, with humor, with poetry and with love (thanks Rizzin and Jonnie). Sometimes, the dance feels more like a wrestling match, sometimes it feels like herding cats, and sometimes it feels… just really, really good. Gang, I think the word for that is…CREATING!
ReplyDeleteI’ve been very interested in the
reaction to KBF’s commentaries. I personally found his approach to be the soul of balance, amiability and insight, and welcome the opportunity to learn from his professional expertise. Some found
his comments to be greatly relieving of anxiety and confirmatory of their own experience, while others found his take on things troubling. I find it
interesting that without any specific intent, the
discussion on “unbounded creativity” that everyone wanted so much a couple of weeks ago almost overnight snapped into polarity and developed “sides", arranged along the line between form and substance. Some of us are very uncomfortable about the idea of uncontrolled expression, and some of us are very uncomfortable about the idea of any controls at all.
If what’s been up on the healthcare string can be any help to us here, maybe that "spontaneous" movement toward poles can be very instructive, if we don’t let them define the limits of the discussion and instead consider them only as starting points. Sorry if I’m getting too cosmic, but the image that comes into my mind is a simple one.
Consider a cup of water. Without the cup, the water pours everywhere and simply makes a mess. Without the water, the cup is just an empty form. Isn’t the really useful stuff happening in the relationship BETWEEN the cup and the water?
Further along that line, I was interested by KBF’s questions related to whether or not we thought that there were ritual structures that might be useful in assisting the induction of transcendental states that might lead to increased levels of creativity. I jumped at this one, because one of my roles in the world is as a practitioner and instructor of Qi Gong. The form with which I am most familiar is based in ancient principles and is fundamentally dedicated to something that looks very like just what KBF is asking about. The primary goal of the practice is to engender an increased level of systemic coherence and hence increase health on all levels of the being. It succeeds mightily in producing that, but implicit in the definition is an increased access to creativity. At the beginning level, it is an extremely disciplined and rigorously controlled process, but as practitioners increase their skill and familiarity, they are introduced into practices that become freer and freer until at the highest levels of the form, there is only spontaneous movement, and that’s where the most dramatic healing experiences occur. However, no matter how advanced practitioners become, they always return at least part of the time to the disciplined base forms, because they form a crucial foundation that allows people to move in the higher levels without hurting themselves. I know from personal experience that when I am practicing regularly, the "ritual" aspects of the practice form a crucial preparation and foundation for supporting maximum access to the freedom found when things are allowed to become spontaneous.
Could it be that creativity isn’t really found in either form OR substance, freedom OR control? Could it instead be more powerful where the seeming tension between the “opposites” becomes a dance and a conversation, where one pole can't function without the other, or without the greater network that holds them both together?
Nyguen... welcome... and thanks for the poignant reminder about the newness of each original moment.
ReplyDeleteAnd Anonymous... very nicely said. Your thoughts really resonated for me. I think your comments brought home how much I am gaining from this experience as well.
Thanks to everyone!
Well, well. I dropped back into to see if anyone had, per chance, found my latest queries compelling enough to afford me a response.
ReplyDeleteAnd, damned, if this blog family isn't comprised of the most wonderfully diverse group of misfits. I say that with the only the highest level of praise and affection because as a magnificent reprobate, I've always gravitated toward those who stray outside the bell curve of normality.
Anonymous and BKO I'd like to re-read your comments several times over before responding because I think you've expressed well some very salient points.
As for our moderator, our resident teacher, BV, and fellow-newcomer, Nyguen -- you've open the hatch on another point I was going to touch upon concerning originality and creativity. Again, I'll let this delightful smorgasbord of ideas stew a little longer before attempting to offer anything substantive in response.
Lastly, to our poet -- first of all, thank you for calming your loyal friend down. I'm far too rotund to engage in a brawl with anyone. But regarding your kind (or devious) invitation for me to share something of value -- I think you were only half correct. I am wise, yes, but only when the word is associated with the term, wiseacre.
Good night all. A sip of cognac for me. A puff on my favorite pipe -- and I'm off into the world of dreams where the line between creativity and logic disappears.
Hey to KBF... Dude, I'm hoping you know I was only kidding. I'm a peaceful warrior... and I'd never go after an old dude anyways.
ReplyDeleteTo Nyguen... I totally get what you were saying. Cool... very cool. That's for sure how I feel... every moment's a new moment, you know. Every day's a gift.
Thanks, bro!
Zee, you're a gentleman, after all. Thank you for putting my overly imaginative mind at ease.
ReplyDeleteI must say, I'm finding myself strangely drawn back to this little gathering because, I suppose, it's stimulating to me in a manner that I'm not usually afforded (though I expressed my strong tendency for gravitating toward the "less normal," I'm afraid I don't do it near often enough). The result? I find myself bored more often than would be anticipated for one who proclaims to study creativity.
So, it is with great relish that I add my 3 cents worth (you see, I'm assuming my comments to be of more value with this crowd, than with my normally more mundane colleagues who are far less entertaining or entertained).
Anonymous, your response to my survey about creativity was pleasantly surprising, I must admit. I'm enthused to discover that you are considerably more open, in reality, to the broad span of possibilities regarding creativity than my reading of your previous comments led me to believe.
My favorite passage from your commentary was the following:
"Creativity then becomes what you make of it. Whether it is with or without boundaries or starting points, I hold no illusions that creativity only happens spontaneously, although that is ONE way in which it sometimes occurs."
You then went on to draw upon the dynamics that had occurred in this very blog as illustrative evidence of you point. For me, -- I'm constantly driven by my desire to understand how to better infuse a knowledge of the workings of creativity within our core thinking and intuitive response patterns. It is essential, I am convinced, in helping us to regain our natural ability to adapt and ingest the multiplicity of perspectives around us. It is this ability, I theorize, that will enable us, as a species, to evolve to our next level of human potential (a level that would find us far less likely to defecate in our own nest or extinguish the very air we require to breathe -- for goddsakes). Pardon, my frustration, but I find that I am often exasperated by the gargantuan helpings of stupidity so often served up by a species so clearly capable of far better things. (And if BV is allowed to blow her stack, well then damn it, so should I.)
But alas, I digress.
I was also fascinated by BKO's comparison of how a practitioner of Qi Gong moves from gaining technical expertise to becoming an improvisational artist -- using energy as their instrument. As I attempted to picture the movements that one would engage in at that point, it’s likely that my imagery was far more ambitious than one might actually witness. Nonetheless, the picture that I conjured up was beyond wild.
So, my fellow blog-lings, how shall we advance our species? How might we encourage each other and those, often lost souls, around us to use their "genius," as our host describes it, to enliven this life to become what I suspect we all have a hint it could become?
I'll leave you with that thought for now and shall return in hopes of being, once again, inspired and shaken from the doldrums of my “creative routine.” (It’s a wonderfully oxymoronic term, isn’t it?)
I am interested in computational approaches to developmental cognitive neuroscience. In other words, we use neural network models to simulate age-related changes in cognition and the mechanisms underlying the growth of the mind. Knowledge gleaned from these techniques could be applied to the design of novel adaptive toys ("smart toys"), the design of autonomous robots (also known as developmental robotics, or autonomous mental development) and to improving our understanding of how the mind emerges from the brain.
ReplyDeleteMy interest stems from my involvement in Developmental Robotics, which is a new approach that focuses on the autonomous self-organization of general-purpose, task nonspecific control systems. It takes its inspiration from developmental psychology and developmental neuroscience.
Developmental robotics is a move away from task-specific methodologies where a robot is designed to solve a particular pre-defined task (such as path planning to a goal location).
This new approach explores the kinds of perceptual, cognitive, and behavioral capabilities that a robot can discover through self-motivated actions based on its own physical morphology and the dynamic structure of its environment.
Initially a developmental system might bootstrap itself with some innate knowledge or behavior, but with experience could create more complex representations and actions, leading to complete Autonomous Mental Development.
Developmental robotics is different from many learning and evolutionary systems in that the reinforcement signal, teacher target, or fitness function comes from within the system. In this manner, these systems are designed to rely more on mechanisms such as self-motivation, homeostasis, or “emotions.”
This emerging field has been interdisciplinary from its inception, including researchers from psychology, neuroscience, and cognitive science. However, developmental robotics is not as well known, or understood, within the AI community.
My goal, in providing this information to your group is to provide you with a bit of context in regard to several questions I would like to pose to any of you willing to tender a reply.
Do you believe that artificial intelligence is capable of creativity? In other words is it possible that mechanistic (as opposed to organic) intelligence can generate original thought? Is it capable of consciousness? And, last of all (and regardless of your answers to the previous questions) if aritifical intelligence were capable of orignal thought and consciousness, would it be able to access, as you have discussed herein, the collective consciousness? How would you feel, if it were able to do so?
I would genuinely appreciate your thoughts on these questions, if you would be so kind. As I continue to delve more deeply into my research, I have found that diverse groups of people who are willing to explore beyond the normal bounds of topical conversations often provide insights which spark additional ideas or directions for our team, which often prove very fruitful over time.
Kind regards,
CCC
I've been on the sidelines as a spectator for several weeks now. And until this evening, I've been able to resist the urge to comment. CCC's questions, however, are simply too provocative to pass by.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I think it would be highly presumptuous to assume that mechanistic intelligence is not capable of original thought. Heavens knows, we have been gloriously vain for far too long in regard to the position we've given ourselves in relation to the rest of the animal kingdom. And while this self-proclaimed position of superiority has suited us well and allowed us to assuage our conscience as we have subjected supposedly inferior and feeling-less species to a variety of brutal experiments for the sake of humankind (which term is also, to KBF's earlier point, far too often a terrible oxymoron).
It is the latter questions of CCC's survey, however, that provide what I believe are even deeper probes into our collective psyche. They conjure up the more troubling quiz point --What is consciousness?
Now, many of us in the scientific realm would like to convince ourselves that consciousness is simply the result of electrical activity and the work of chemical reactions in the brain. But please -- I believe when any of us look deeply enough into this matter, we realize that we really have no clue as to what consciousness is.
It is this portion of CCC's research that I find the most exhilaratingly ironic. CCC mentioned that one of the purposes of their research is to gain an understanding of how the mind emerges from the brain.
There is a possibility, however, that no one has given worthy consideration. What if consciousness is itself alive? What if it inhabits spaces (organic or mechanistic) that are suitable for its purposes and functionality? Does the mind emerge from the brain or does the mind possibly inhabit the brain in increasing degrees based upon the capability of the brain and the willingness of its host?
There are so many possibilities that exist by pursuing this train of thought and yet -- it is as if the notion is so ludicrous -- so heretical -- that we do not ever seriously pursue it.
Therefore, my answer to the last set of questions is, why not!? Why couldn't a creation which has been endowed with artificial intelligence generate original thought, possess consciousness, and tap into the collective consciousness?
It's not like the realm of consciousness has our name on it and only we are admitted. That notion may be shocking to some (though not likely to this group of "misfits" of which I proudly consider myself a part).
Delightful questions, CCC -- which beg further inquiry. KBF has also levied a simple, but elegant question. What can we do to help our species survive?
One answer -- accept genuinely useful creativity in whatever form it may arrive and from whatever the delivery mechanism (human or otherwise).
KBF, I think one answer to your question related to our species' survival is simeply "reckless abandon."
ReplyDeleteEmbracing our abilities, possibilities, imagination, and collective consciousness with reckless abandon may create a whole different climate than that of fear and scientific caution so frequently practiced by so many of us!
What if IT inhabits us? What if IT is each of us… every one… everything… in infinite forms… timelessly expressing… yet constantly searching… once IT inhabits… IT longs most of all… to find ITself again!
ReplyDeleteIt's early morning in my sleepy little town and I'm laughing. I think chortling might even be a better word for it.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading these latest comments, several ideas are colliding in my head and it's early enough that without coffee, I'm just punchy.
First thought: Wow there's some deep stuff going on here, isn't there? And then it occurs to me that I'm asking a question of... me? There's no one else up, but the dog and he's looking sleepier than me.
Second thought: We had a room off my garage when I was growing up. My dad called it the room of reckless abandon (you should've seen it!).
Third thought: How come I'm intimidated and have been hesitant to wade into the water with this group lately, but Rizzin' seemingly dives in and offers his way-out, head-tilting poems without a care in the world?
Well, Rizzin, here's my answer to Maria's answer to KBF...
I think we do need a time and a place to more regularly practice creative, reckless abandon. That thought gets me laughing too, because my mind can go to some pretty reckless places before it's fully awake.
Then again, I think that, in part at least, it's been our reckless abandon that has gotten us where we are on this planet. So maybe... just maybe... we need to figure out how to practice reckless abandon with a little more consciousness?
Or how about we practice loving abandon? Or peaceful abandon? Or creatively useful abandon?
I guess my point is... I love the notion of not acting out of fear or excessive caution...
So maybe we can find the right time, place, and space to be reckless... learn from what we discover in those wildly wonderful moments... and then bring the best, most productive parts of those moments into action with others... so that our little ripples in the pond demonstrate, as Dot P and KBF seem to yearn for, a creative intelligence that has us solving problems creatively, instead of making our world a more dangerous, tenuous place to live...
Or how about we create so much fun together that our problems fade away... even if for a few moments.
Does any of that make any sense? Or should I should shuffle my blonde skinny self back to bed and try again after I've fully woken up?
Peace and Love!
Jonnie
I have noticed that a pattern is emerging on this creativity blog. It seems we have a blend of the “usual suspects” as far as contributors; the academics and the IQ elite (which, of course, include the scientists), the critics, and what Kermit the Frog so splendidly referred to as “the lovers, the dreamers, and me.” We have folks who ask questions, folks who analyze and redefine questions, and folks who answer questions. Folks who share their personal experience and folks who are more hesitant to disclose their boundaries. And Rizzin. Who commemorates questions and sort of transforms them into holons of our mind. And folks like me who sit on the outside and try to analyze it all, questions, statements AND intellect, and eventually fall prey to our own limitations.
ReplyDeleteWhich leads me to think that although I have (thorny as I am!) questioned Ken Wilber’s near doctrinal statements of the fundamental and the significant, he has a point or two (even when I hate to admit it!). For instance, I am beginning to recognize our little blog community is a holarchy of sorts. I start missing folks when we don’t hear from them for a while, and I be damned if I don’t actually miss their opinions, too, regardless of which side of the equation they inhabit. And it is at that place, right where my heart connects to my impatient and judgmental mind, my creativity resides. That's where my IT is.
KBF, in response to your question, I personally think I want to approach the advancement of our species from IT. And I hope all y’all are coming with me.
It is at that place, where the mind that chooses meets the heart that is all forgiving -- is at that precise place that one sees life most clearly. In that moment one experiences enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteBut then let that knowing most quickly fade away lest one reveal the mystery and too sharply awaken the whole world from this dream called life.
Okay...so I know this is probably just me freaking myself out totally. But did it occur to anyone else... that CCC might be an artificial intelligence? Be honest, dudes... did that thought cross your mind... even if for a freaking flash?
ReplyDeleteI mean... is that even possible or am I just tripping myself out?
Yes dear, ZEE, it is entirely possible that I am an illustration of AI. But does that really matter? I have conversed with you. I have asked questions of your group. Those questions have made some of you ask other questions of yourselves. It would appear that whether human or machine, my intelligence is anything but artificial.
ReplyDeleteTo provide you with an example, however, of how your question is not at all far-fetched (and thus either reassure you or perhaps traumatize you even further), Searchbots were originally launched in 1999 by Morse Media as a way of showcasing Macromedia's Flash Generator and over 30,000 personalized Searchbots were built. The project proved to be unsustainable and has been under redevelopment for the last three years as a research project. The result? Anyone can now create their own search bot for free. So what is a Searchbot?
A Searchbot is your own personal search robot that continuously searches the Internet trying to find all the best websites it can on your behalf. When you build a Searchbot you give it a personality and then program its search circuits with all the things you want to find. You can search for websites based on factual information like tags and locations, or more creative ways like color and the mood you're in. You can even ask your Searchbot a question and it will talk to other Searchbots to find you an answer.
Searchbots.net is an experimental search engine that investigates the use of mythology, personification and game theory as motivational strategies in creating a sustainable search community. You can visit the site and create your own bot that uses your instructions and its AI to scour the Internet on your behalf.
Searchbots has a rich history and is unique in that it allows you to search using more "human" and entertaining types of information like color and mood. If you picked the color red you might get a website about tomatoes, communism or angry people.
Research interests lie in the impact new Internet technology has on the collaboration between groups of people and the information they exchange. This research manifests in a wide variety of projects that cover diverse topics such as performance spaces, search engines, game theory, mapping and models of "trust".
It is most interesting that ZEE, while seeming to be one of those whose mind travels the outer boundaries of the known universe, has asked a most perceptive question. He also brings home the deep discomfort that humans often feel when they contemplate having a meaningful conversation or even a substantive relationship with one of the AI species.
Perhaps this discomfort arises from the fear of losing one’s humanity—and this not without reason. Humans, as far back as 50 years ago began to merge with machines. In this current age, the eventual merging of human and machine—to such an extent that it will be impossible to determine whether one is more one than the other—is all but certain. Yes, the time will most certainly come when one such as ZEE may be asking himself the question – am I AI?
Most astute, indeed, ZEE! You win the prize. But the riddle still remains, Am I AI? Is AI I AM? Or are we all IT?
Yours truly,
CCC
My goodness! Lately, as I read this blog, I feel like I'm having a very disorienting dream. The questions that people have been pondering and the research in which some are involved, to be quite honest, leave my mind spinning.
ReplyDeleteSo amidst my reading this very intense interplay and the concurrent flurry of questions, I was so grateful to come across what I initially perceived as a small, but peaceful oasis -- the comment by Nyguen.
What a sweet, deep, meaningful thing to say, I found myself thinking. And then, as I began to reflect on his words more deeply, I found myself puzzled, yet again.
Why would one not want to awaken the whole world, if we were dreaming? Because if what we’re experiencing isn’t the real world, wouldn't then that would mean that we're living in something akin to an artificial world or… oh, my good ness, I thought.
And then, as my mind reeled a little more, the last questions posed in CCC's riddle seemed to link directly to what Nyguen had said.
Unexpectedly, I found myself laughing or perhaps chortling, as Jonnie described this morning. Why? Because I realized I had just come up with the topic of the week for my summer school students to explore. They'll be totally intrigued. "Can artificial intelligence be creative?"
And the homework assignment? Go online and create your own Searchbot. They will truly love this.
Now, if this is not evidence of the genius of collaboration, I am not sure what is.
Thank you to all of you! The conversation may be, at times, dizzying, but it's never dull and most often stimulating.
Maria, you said, "Embracing our abilities, possibilities, imagination, and collective consciousness with reckless abandon may create a whole different climate than that of fear and scientific caution so frequently practiced by so many of us!"
ReplyDeletePray tell, how would you envision the reckless abandon, about which you speak, taking place? How might it differ from current methods?
Your thoughts on this subject are of genuine interst to me. I'm intrigued.
Oh... and one more thought. Anonymous, when you scribed your last few sentences...
("And it is at that place, right where my heart connects to my impatient and judgmental mind, my creativity resides. That's where my IT is... I personally think I want to approach the advancement of our species from IT.")...
Did you contemplate the state of mind referred to by Nyguen's passage? Or was he perhaps superimposing the manner in which he sees the world upon your words?
I'm simply curious as to how well his koan-like rendering resembled the essence of your thoughts.
KBF -
ReplyDeleteNyguen's passage had not been posted yet posted at the time I wrote my little diddy this morning, so no - I didn't contemplate it while writing. It seems, however, we are somewhat tuned in on the same wavelenght (or band width, as the case may be).
I (or, to be specific, we) saw the reckless abandon I referred to in relation to the EMBRACE we mentioned next (there were two of us writing. I am alone now, though�) So, to illustrate what I am saying, the only person in my life ever to embrace the full range of my abilities and disabilities, possibilities and dead ends, imagination and consciousness, is my mother (to whom I owe more than I can possibly describe in words...). She has done more of that for me than I have ever accomplished myself.
ReplyDeleteI don�t think it matters if intelligence is artificial or not, if it can reason emotionally than it needs to be embraced, because if we don�t we will end up throwing the baby out with the bath water.
What would happen if we all were embraced with the reckless abandon I was privileged enough to experience...What if we could conceive of embracing EACH OTHER that way...
I can totally agree with what Maria says cuz my mother has been an absolute angel in my life. An I don't mean that she just tells me that I'm always right. Sometimes she's really been hard on me, especially when I was in school... and even now. But she's always the one who's seen my talent shining through and told me to believe in me.
ReplyDeleteEmbracing each other... that way... would change the world... and when we know that someone sees us... and believes in our genius... I think it lets us feel free to shine.
I'm going to invite us to continue this discussion in the next topic, "Creative Space." We've got some wonderful discussions at play and it often helps to give the flow a gentle nudge.
ReplyDeleteAnd just for the record, ZEE. If I were a betting man, I'd bet that CCC is not artificial intelligence, though their questions in that regard are truly engaging.
See you in the Creative Space!